Tom Glowacki:

Okay. Today is June 2, 2023. And I am Tom Glowacki, here, at the Great Dane Brewpub, in Madison, to interview the Honorable Valerie Bailey-Rihn, as of the Dane County Bar Association History Project. This interview will be recorded and transcribed and made available for people interested in the evolution and development of the practice of law in Dane County. Judge Bailey-Rihn, do I have your permission to record you and have a transcript prepared?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

You do.

Tom Glowacki:

Thank you. Feel like you're taking a deposition?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

Yeah.

Tom Glowacki:

Just give me your full name, please.

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

Valerie Lynn Bailey-Rihn.

Tom Glowacki:

And where do you live now?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

Madison, Wisconsin.

Tom Glowacki:

And I don't know if you want to get into how much detail we have, right now, but, just briefly, what's your family background?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

Well, I grew up in Pardeeville, Wisconsin. I'm a small-town girl. My mother was a nurse. My father sold boots and life insurance and had a local photography studio. I have... Or, I had four siblings.

Tom Glowacki:

And what's your educational background, going back to how you first steered yourself into a career in the law field?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

As I mentioned, when I was in third grade, I came home one day and said that I wanted to go to law school. Well, I wanted to be a lawyer, because I liked to read and write, but lawyers have more job security than writers. Apparently, I had heard that from someone at my school, that day, probably a father, talking about what he did. And so, I wanted to go to law school. But when I graduated from high school early, I started college at UW-Madison, because I couldn't afford it, went through on a scholarship. I decided to major in accounting, so that I'd have some marketable job skills, in case I didn't get into law school. Worked as an accountant, got my CPA. And then, saved up enough money to go to law school. So, went back to UW-Madison.

Tom Glowacki:

Did you have any other careers, before entering law school?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

As a CPA. I worked as a accountant, for four years, so I did accounting. Before that, it was the summer jobs in Dell, so I worked for the Tommy Bartlett show. And that helped pay for my college career.

Tom Glowacki:

Took care of the Nocks?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

Sold tickets for Tommy Bartlett.

Tom Glowacki:

Okay. So, when did you start law school?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

In 1987.

Tom Glowacki:

And that was when you lived in Madison?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

Yes.

Tom Glowacki:

Did you have any jobs, during law school?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

I worked for the Boardman Law Firm, my first summer. And I worked for Quarles, my second summer. And then, got an offer from Quarles, so started with Quarles, right after graduation. I did not work, during law school. Luckily, my husband was employed and managed to feed us and put a roof over our head. It was lean years, but it was a lot of fun.

Tom Glowacki:

So, just in general terms, what was your law practice like, starting with your first days at Quarles?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

I started in the Madison office, but I spent quite a bit of time in Milwaukee, because we had the Boston Store bankruptcy and that was engaging a lot of young lawyers. I ended up doing quite a bit in Madison. And then, we didn't have that many associates, so I did transactional work, I did corporate work, I did litigation, commercial litigation, I did bankruptcy work, creditors rights, you name it. When I got offered the job, they were concerned about having enough work for me and they asked me if I'd be flexible and I said, "I'll wash your car. Whatever you want me to do, I'll do." And so, they were right, I had a lot of different areas that I worked. And, ultimately, ended up in commercial litigation.

Tom Glowacki:

During that time, were you mentored by anybody in the firm?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

Oh, yes. There were only 11 women in the entire firm, in all our offices. There really weren't many women in the Madison office. The one associate that was ahead of me, left. And there was her and me and I think one other woman, and Molly Martin, who was in corporate. So, my mentors were men and they were really good mentors. Jim Cole, Roy [Kind 00:37:16], Don Schott, Jeff Bartell, all excellent lawyers, excellent mentors. And, really, I never really experienced some of the horror stories, you hear about women lawyers, in that era. I was fortunate to work with some really good mentors.

Tom Glowacki:

I knew three of those guys. Yeah. They were good people.

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

Yeah.

Tom Glowacki:

Do you participate, much, in state bar activities?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

I was primarily in the local bar association. I got involved with both, I think, originally, in the new member. And then, I ended up being the treasurer, for a number of years. And then, the local bar president. So, I was primarily on the local level, the local bar. Didn't really do... I went to the state bar, was involved in the bankruptcy creditors section. I didn't really have any offices with the state bar. Primarily, local.

Tom Glowacki:

Besides the state bar activities, were you involved in any kind of local community activities?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

Yes. I was president of the Ice Age Board of Directors. I was involved in a women's business organization. I was involved with the zoo. I was on the commission, for a while. And other boards. I can't remember them all, now. But the nice thing about where I was, they encouraged local activity, but they also encouraged you to go on boards and be involved in things that interest you, not just... You weren't assigned. You were able to develop your own interest. And I've always been an outdoor person, so a lot of my board activities were on outdoor places or organizations.

Tom Glowacki:

Going back to your legal career, what did you enjoy most about it?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

I loved the business litigation, because I got to learn a lot about different businesses, and I really enjoyed that. I've always liked business, both, as an accountant, and then, as a lawyer. I also enjoyed the travel. I did a lot of traveling. After a while, after 25 years, it got to be a long time, but I got to see a lot of areas of the country, in connection with my cases, and I enjoyed that.

Tom Glowacki:

What were some of your most memorable cases?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

Well, I had several cases that went to The Seventh Circuit. One that was petitioned to go to the Supreme Court, but it didn't, which is too bad, because I would've enjoyed that. A lot of cases that went to the Wisconsin Supreme Court. And a lot of those cases took a lot of years. I didn't want it to be years, before it was resolved. It was at The Wisconsin Supreme Court twice. So, I think those type of cases, for good or bad, you can't ever forget. They were tough, but they were also very [inaudible 00:10:06]. They were very striking, put it that way.

Tom Glowacki:

Who were some of the memorable attorneys and judges that you've dealt with, during your career?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

Obviously, for judges, it would be Judge Kraft, who was an amazing judge. I also had a trial in front of Judge Shabaz, which was interesting, but he treated me very well. I loved practicing in front of Judge Martin, he was very bright and very knowledgeable. I had one case with Judge O'Brien, that she actually mentioned in her interview, where she had a mock trial, that was very interesting.

As far as opposing counsel, I had a lot of... My practice was pretty much all over the country, so I went into different opposing counsels, so I didn't practice against the same people over and over. But, along the way, there were some really good opposing counsels that were very professional and I enjoyed practicing against them. And then, there were a few that I won't go into detail-

Tom Glowacki:

Right.

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

... but I thought less than ethical. But, for the most part, I think that... And I actually had a couple opposing counsel call me up, years later, and say... Especially one, where he was having some issues because one of his children was sick. And so, we both, I and, actually, Judge Shabaz were accommodating. And, years later, he called up and thanked me for how professional I was, so I remember that. I thought that was nice. So, both, good and bad.

Tom Glowacki:

So, good and bad lawyers aside, what did you like least about practicing law?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

Obviously, sometimes, the hours, because to be successful in what I was doing, you had to put in a lot of hours, and that included missing my grandmother's funeral, because I had a Seventh Circuit argument that they wouldn't reschedule. And, just, sometimes, unreasonable clients or unreasonable on the other side, where you are fighting over things that shouldn't be fought over. And if you had more reasonable people, you can resolve that. I think those were the parts that I liked least. And clients that like to litigate, and then, on a matter of principle, and then forget to pay, when they lose their principle.

Tom Glowacki:

There's always that. Yeah.

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

Yeah.

Tom Glowacki:

I know, I was kind of frustrated to be dealing with opposing counsel. And the other counsel and I, both, knew where the case needed to end up, and one of us couldn't... Or, sometimes, neither of us could deliver the clients.

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

Uh-huh. Yes. That is frustrating, because if they're paying you to listen, they should listen.

Tom Glowacki:

So, what made you want to be a judge?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

Seeing Judge Kraft in action. My very first jury trial was in front of her. And, up to that point, I had never realized that there were women judges. There were very few women lawyers, so why would I think... But, after that, I was like, "Someday, I want to be a judge, because she's there to make things fair and to make sure that both sides have an equal opportunity."

Tom Glowacki:

And Sarah O'Brien was also something to be in front of, back then, wasn't she?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

Uh-huh. And Judge [Toomey 00:15:00]. Very, very smart, very talented ladies. And Judge O'Brien had a case, where... And then, one day, she came in on her day off, just because we hadn't settled it. And, just her ruling us to do what needed to be done to get the case resolved was, I thought, really impressive.

Tom Glowacki:

So, you went to the judicial college, out there in Las Vegas?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

No. We have a... judicial college was in Green Lake, Wisconsin.

Tom Glowacki:

Okay.

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

So, yeah, the judicial colleges are just places in Wisconsin, for a week, right after the current term starts.

Tom Glowacki:

And what was that like?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

It was really interesting. There were a lot of different levels of experience, from new judges, from our young to old. And you had to go once, every six years, so you had experienced judges and then new judges. It was pretty intense. It was a lot of work, but you learned a lot. We, at the time, we were at the Heidel House. And, one thing everybody remembers about it was the food was horrible, they had pasta, every day. And it got mushier, over the week, so we think they just reheated it. So, that kind of bonded everybody. Everybody, you still see people that were there for judicial college and they just laugh about that, so... But, other than that, I mean, it was a really interesting experience and we learned a lot, learned a lot of practical stuff.

Tom Glowacki:

So, once you got up on the bench, did you receive any further mentoring from other judges?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

Uh-huh. You have mentor judges, days of mentoring, where they sit with you and either do it or help you with your questions. And then, of course, all the other judges are more than willing to help mentor. And if you have a question or something, you can call on anyone. And you can also take a break and try to find an answer. Judges still do that, if they have a question that they don't really... If there's a procedure or something that comes up, that they're not really familiar with, take a recess and go find out why. And so-

Tom Glowacki:

One thing I've always wondered about was making a shift from advocacy counsel, to being a judge, what was that process like for you?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

... I think, for me, it was easier. Because when you're a new lawyer, you're ruling, black and white, your side's right, the other side's not. The older that you get, I think the more you realize, the more experienced you get, both sides have pluses and minuses. And you try to work out what seems to be a reasonable solution for everybody. Or, at least that's part of your goal, is to advise your client risks and the positives that go into a to trial. And so, you are really looking to try to resolve things.

And I think, so when you become a judge, you're really kind of in that role, too, is you're trying to make things fair and trying to make sure that... And, then, in some ways, trying to make sure that people understand the risks and the benefits of litigating, so that they can make an informed decision and perhaps resolve it on their own.

Tom Glowacki:

Going back to your private practices, a lot of commercial litigation, what was it like for you, when you found yourself in juvenile rotation or family court rotation?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

Well, I was fortunate, because I ran for a seat with the civil rotation. And I stayed in civil. So, I did have just a civil. I did do duty week, which is criminal, and that did sort of getting up to speed on. And family law took some getting up to speed on. I took some seminars, some things, before I became a judge, because I knew I was going to be in... Part of civil, is family law, so I went to seminars and read cases and boned up on that, went to... And there are judicial training, every year, that you go to. And one of which is family law. So, you can pick what you want to go to, and I went to a couple of those, because that was the area that I hadn't in.

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

So, it was interesting. The one thing that struck me is the lawyers that practice in family law, they do a really good job, with not a lot of money, and a lot, a lot of respect, but especially the guardian and lawyers, they're an important process. They really try hard. And I often... I think they deserve a lot of kudos, because family law is really a tough area to practice in.

Tom Glowacki:

Was doing the course and listening to family law an experience for you? Or...

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

Yes. But, mainly, they just want to know the process and they want to be heard. You know? So, you had to get used to it and you... But you try to give them the process, to understand what's going on, but you get some difficult people, and that's just part of the job.

Tom Glowacki:

And you became chief judge, and then county judge, correct?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

Yes. They call it presiding judge, but it's the same.

Tom Glowacki:

So, I won't name names, but some of your predecessors have rolled their eyes, in describing doing the meetings and trying to get things done.

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

Well, the judiciary in Dane County has always been very collaborative. And when you have 17 people, sometimes it does take longer to get things done. Unfortunately, during COVID, I didn't have the luxury of that, so I had to make some decisions, that I'm sure were unkind to them. I know they weren't unpopular, because I got an ear full, but it just had to be done and I had to do it. And now that COVID is over, I think we're back to a more collaborative, so I think that's good. I think that's way it should have been, but with COVID, it was a unique time, so...

Tom Glowacki:

Yeah. Basically, it was after COVID, your predecessors [inaudible 00:24:18] out, way before then. So, going back to the things that were good, before [inaudible 00:24:18], having some conflict with your courtroom?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

People that didn't know the rules of evidence, they would object and I'd say, "On what grounds?" and they wouldn't know or they would say... Yeah. They didn't know. That was a little bit irritating. People that weren't prepared, people that were late, without a good reason. I mean, in duty week, you know, lawyers are assigned all over, so if they're late, you understand. You know? People that fight for things, over things that should be fought over, and it appears that it's only because it's, in my head, being about the money, and there's very little money to be had, so that was kind of irritating too. Or, lack of professionalism. I had a couple guys that got into that fight in the men's bathroom, lawyers. Yeah. So, that was irritating, so...

Tom Glowacki:

So, what were some of the best lawyers practicing in your courtroom?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

Well, there were some fabulous lawyers, especially with a case I had that was really high-profile, very, very... I had a couple very high-profile cases. I had some really fabulous lawyers that knew their stuff. I had suggested that maybe they allow some of the younger associates that had experience, for specific court trials and they did. And their younger associates were fabulous and really [inaudible 00:26:38]. So, just really good lawyers, very professional as well.

Even among the... Not even, but among lawyers that practice family law, you get some lawyers that know they come in and they're going to be reasonable and they're going to try to get to a compromise. And I really appreciated that, because family law is one of these areas, where I think it's really hard to be in court, because there's not a lot of benefits to it. You get some person who doesn't know your children, making decisions. And you're fighting. And the fighting doesn't help the kids or the parents move on, so it was really nice to see these lawyers that I knew would be ethical, honest, professional, and they were problem solvers, so...

Tom Glowacki:

That's why Jackson, who oversaw The Supreme Court, he would often tell the parties he was the least qualified person in courtroom to make a decision, involving their families.

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

Mm-hmm.

Tom Glowacki:

And court, really, that didn't seem to scare too many people.

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

No. But I've said that too. I tell people, "I don't have children, but I'll try my best. I'll do anything. If I need to make a decision, I will, because that's my job, but I think you could come up with a better decision than I."

Tom Glowacki:

Having completed your term, what advice would you have for new judges?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

Just enjoy it and work hard. Realize that, as a trial judge, you're making a lot of decisions on a lot of people's lives and never let that get to your head. Never get black robe disease, don't ever think you're better than somebody else. And be humble, because we really are making decisions that impact people's lives. You have to keep that in mind, when you go on the bench.

Tom Glowacki:

So, getting back to COVID, but I'm going to ask you an open-ended question, what was that like for the lawyers that stayed?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

COVID, made the courts turn on a dime. On a Friday, I was told that it was possible we were going to close the courthouse on Monday, so we had to scramble, to make sure that... And not everybody had remote access, both judges and staff, so we had to get that set up. And then, we had to have ways, where other people could see other judges, too, just to try to process things and to do that electronically. I mean, luckily, we were doing electronic filing.

But we were prepared to not have a courthouse. We had to learn Zoom. The judges all, I mean, had to do it, on their own. We had to set up YouTube channels, on our own. We had bench computers, that didn't have microphone or video capabilities, because of security reasons, so Zoom was relatively ineffective, at first, because you couldn't do it out from the bench, you could do it from your laptop, so there was a lot.

We went from warrants coming with the officer in person, with getting them signed, to electronic ones, which I did for the first four months, I think, because no one else... There were few people with me, that they knew how to do them. So, it was a massive amount of technology that the judges had to learn, myself included, in a short period of time, without... And we're all middle-aged people that are not used to the latest technology, so I give everybody credit for actually being able to master this stuff. And we did. But that was an amazing change.

And then, we had to figure out how to keep everybody safe in the courthouse, "What are we going to do to keep people safe? What type of cleanings supplies? What are we going to do, as far as separation? What are we going to do for jury trials?" Jury trials was the hardest, there were no good solutions. "When are we going to have in-person hearings again?" There was, obviously, a difference of opinion, so we put together a task force on that, came up with a plan. In fact, I think our plan, as far as how to shut down the courthouse and keep people safe or limit... We never shut it down, entirely. We still had it open, but we had a drop box and things of that nature, for filings and things.

But I think our protocol and procedures were one of the first in state, copied by a lot of people. And I give credit to the DA because he was really on top of COVID and brought it to our attention. We had a courthouse task force, and we met and talked about it. He was spot on, as far as what was coming. And so, so that was very interesting and very stressful.

Tom Glowacki:

So, what was it like, easing out of all of those restrictions and getting back to some degree of normality, which I understand, by the standard and by date, were not necessarily reached yet?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

That was tough, too, because we're in the throes of COVID, it's still going on. The vaccinations were finally out, but no one knew about the effect of it was, or... And so, there was a lot of difference of opinions about what we could or should do. And, ultimately, we just had to take it one day at a time. And, now, things are pretty much back to normal, as far as the course of hearing people.

So, a lot of people still like and use Zoom. We found that it was very effective, in certain areas. Like, for instance, during COVID, I had a class action that was in front of me, that they settled. And the lawyers were from all over the country. And so, they would've all flown in, for a half-hour hearing. Probably, more lawyers in my courtroom that would fit, anyway, because I have one of the smaller ones. And so, we did it by Zoom. And it was incredibly easy. The people could appear in person, they could be heard, they could be heard by Zoom, but you didn't have to have all the lawyers by you.

Tom Glowacki:

So, what lessons remain, I hate to say it, the next pandemic?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

I still think there's some technology that needs to be uploaded at the courthouse, that they're working on. And, obviously, technology will be at the forefront of trying to resolve anything, if we have another pandemic. Lessons learned is I guess you could get through it. I mean, we go no one... People got COVID, but they didn't spread it in the courthouse and no one died. And that was my goal, to get through this with no one dying in the courthouse, because of COVID. And I guess the other lesson is, just having a system in place, of what you're going to do is, if there is another pandemic.

Tom Glowacki:

So, where do you see your practice of law going, from here?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

That's kind of an interesting question. I'm not sure I can answer that.

Tom Glowacki:

Okay.

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

There's, obviously, the other areas of law that have become more prominent and then some that aren't.

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

I think technology is going to continue to play an important role, but I don't think you're going to have too many... What was it, recently, in the paper, about the guy who wrote that used artificial intelligence to write his brief?

Tom Glowacki:

That go did not go too well?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

No. I don't think that's going to happen, too much. And there's been a lot of issues about outsourcing and things like that, but I don't know if that's... How much that's realistically. But I think, also, though, people are working more remotely. And with the technology there, they can do that.

Tom Glowacki:

So, for anything we've covered, so far, would you like to be recorded for [inaudible 00:37:16]?

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

I don't think so. I think Dane County is an amazing place to practice and also be a judge.

Tom Glowacki:

Thank you for taking the time and sharing and your experiences with me and the readers. We will have a transcript prepared of this interview and send to you for proofing, before it becomes part of the part of the [inaudible 00:37:30] History Project, and if you have something to add. But, I'll just note, the time is now 4:20 and I'll shut off the recording.

Judge Valerie Bailey-Rihn:

Okay.