December 29, 2006

 With Steward Stroud in his home at [REDACTED], Madison, Wisconsin to talk about his career in the practice of law for the Dane County Bar history that we are preparing:               

Ragatz                Tell me first when you were born?

Stroud                June 16, 1914

Ragatz                Where?

Stroud                Madison, Wisconsin.

Ragatz                Where did you go to school?

Stroud                Well, I went to school here in Madison and I went to Shaduck Military School then was in high school, I think that was my sophomore year. I had been at Central.

Ragatz                Central High School?

Stroud                Yes.

Ragatz                Where did you go to college?

Stroud                Dartmouth.

Ragatz                What year did you graduate?

Stroud                1936.

Ragatz                Did you go right on to law school, or did you do something different?

Stroud                I think I did, yes.

Ragatz                Where did you go to law school?

Stroud                Michigan, 1939.

Ragatz                Did you have any honors or special activities in either undergraduate or law school?

Stroud                I was on Law Review at Michigan.

Ragatz                Anything else?

Stroud                Well I worked which took a bit of time, a lot more that I thought I which took quite a bit of time, a lot more than I thought.

Ragatz                Alright, 1939 what did you do next?  

Stroud                I went to work for Schay and Hoyt, Edmund B. Schay and Ralph Hoyt Do you know either of them?

Ragatz                Sure- I remember Ralph, I don't know that I remember Schay. That was in Milwaukee.

Stroud                Of course that's where I practiced, in Milwaukee.

Ragatz                How long were you with that firm?

Stroud                Oh I think about 5 years.

Ragatz                Were you in the service in World War Il.

Stroud                Yes, I wasn't in during, just before the war started.

Ragatz                So that would have been about 1941. What kind of practice did you have with Schay and Hoyt?

Stroud                Whatever they didn't want to do. Whatever Ed Schay or Ralph Hoyt didn't want to do, I got to do. Mostly I worked for Ed Schay.

Ragatz                How large was the firm?

Stroud                I think there was just the three of us there, Before I got there a fellow by the name of Mickleson was there but he wasn't a partner, but he was a hell of a good lawyer, he drank a little in excess I think, which was a problem, but other than that he was great.

Ragatz                Did you become a partner while you were there?

Stroud                No.

Ragatz                And when did you leave?

Stroud                About 1950.

Ragatz                You came to Madison in 1950?

Stroud                Yes.

Ragatz                Tell me about your service in World War II.

Stroud                I was on War Dept General Staff in a Section that was completely secret,

Ragatz                You were in Washington D.C. You didn't get overseas?

Stroud                Yes, I was in DC. I went overseas first, as soon as I finished training. As soon as I became an officer.

Ragatz                Which branch were you in?

Stroud                Anti-aircraft.

Ragatz                This was U.S. Army?

Stroud                Yes. And after that I went to Officers' Candidate School.

Ragatz                You went overseas, where?

Stroud                I started in Hawaii and then I went to one of the little islands for a while.

Ragatz                This was after Pearl Harbor?

Stroud                Yes.

Ragatz                And then you returned to the States.

Stroud                I think I got to Pearl Harbor right after, just after they hit and bombed it. it was still a mess and I was there for a few months and then I went to some other island for a while and then I got sent back here. The commanding officer said, and I don't know whether he was being good to me or not, but he said ''you're too smart to be out here" and so he got me sent back here to the States. I came back and never went out again. I was supposed to go overseas again right away but didn't go.

Ragatz                What kind of work, were you doing legal work then of some kind or another?

Stroud                No, I think was doing supply work. It was an anti-aircraft outfit that I was with.

Ragatz                Okay, let’s go back to the time you started your practice career in Madison      in 1950. Teli me about your firm.

Stroud                Well, it was my father and George Young

Ragatz                Who became the Dean of the Law School.

Stroud                Yes, the Dean, you knew him?

Ragatz                Oh sure.

Stroud                l think my brother was there too.  Donald Stroud.

Ragatz                He was already there when you came?

Stroud               Yes, I think so.

Ragatz                How about Emmert Wingert?

Stroud                Oh yes.  Bill Wingert was there until he went onto the Wisconsin Supreme Court

Ragatz                Anybody else you recall being in the firm at that time?

Stroud                Byron Stebbins.

Ragatz                Stroud, Stebbins and Stroud.

Stroud                Yes.

Ragatz               Wingert, and Young, or Young and Wingert? Something like that?  

Stroud                Yes, something like that.

Ragatz                But that firm has quite a history, going back into the 1800s   doesn't it'?

Stroud                Oh yes.

Ragatz                Tell me about that. George Young was pretty much a corporate lawyer. As I recall, he wrote some of Corporate Code.

Stroud               Did he? I think he was there he must have left about the time I got there and went to the Law School.

Ragatz                He became Dean of the Law School in 1957.

Stroud                Yes, that was probably pretty close to when I got there.

Ragatz               Well you were saying about 1950 you probably got there, so you must. have practiced together for a little while.

Stroud                I don't ever remember his being there when I was there-

Ragatz                Well maybe he went to the Law School before he became Dean. I don't know that.

Stroud                I think that I didn’t go to the firm until he left.

Ragatz                Tell us about the history of the firm, the Olin and Butler history.

Stroud                Well Olin had most of the good clients in town. He was a great lawyer and I didn't know him very well, obviously.

Ragatz                But he was still alive when you joined the firm?

Stroud                Yes.

Ragatz                When did that firm start?

Stroud                Well Harry Butler and who was the Dean of the Law School.

Ragatz                Not the guy that went to New York?

Stroud                No, no.

Ragatz                When was the firm first started?

Stroud                Our firm — way back. A guy named John M. Olin was there along with Harry

Butler.

Ragatz                It was Olin and Butler. That goes back even to the turn of the Century.

Stroud                I think it was the oldest there was. That's what they use to say once and while.

Ragatz                It was known as the leading law firm back in the early days of the 1900s. Do you remember who else was involved with that firm?

Stroud                Besides Butler? I think Olin taught too at the Law School. Cassidy was there, I remember him.   Elton Cassidy.  Elton was more of a middle-lightweight but he got all the junk stuff in the office and I think he was a lightweight.

Ragatz                He was there when you arrived.  Prior to that though, who had practiced with the firm. 

Ragatz                Other than Olin and Butler one guy was killed during the war; one of the partners.                 

Ragatz                Can you give me a name?

Stroud               I can't remember.

Ragatz                Had there been some split-offs of firms?

Stroud                There could be, but I think it was after I got there.  Bob Reiser left and he took Cliff Mathys with him. I think they had represented Manchesters, as recall, which was big-time,

Ragatz                And probably Madison Gas too.

Stroud                Yes, Madison Gas, that's right. I guess Madison Gas was their principal client and I think they still have that client.

Ragatz                But Reiser and Mathys formed their own firm.

Stroud                Yes, Mathys think went over there after Reiser did.

Ragatz                Stafford, was he with your firm or did he join them after they split up?

Stroud                Stafford? Who was he with.

Ragatz                I only know him as having being with the Reiser Mathys.

Stroud                Willard Stafford.

Ragatz                You don't recall him being with your firm, or Bill Rosenbaum?

Stroud                No.

Ragatz                Tell me about the practice of the Stroud firm in the 1950s. Who were your significant clients?

Stroud                I don't remember Tom,

Ragatz                I know of some of them, like Findorff and Kramer.

Stroud                But Kramer was later. We always had Findorff as far as I can remember.

Ragatz                They always advertised that they were formed in the 1890s. So you think that was originally an Olin and Butler client?

Stroud                Yes.

Ragatz                But you built a nice practice yourself, from my observations over the years.

Stroud                A few.

Ragatz                You don't have to be modest, it’s alright.

Stroud                Ya I don't remember.

Ragatz                Tell me about some noteworthy matters that you handled, other than when you and I were arguing about things, but I think there were a number of noteworthy matters over the years that you were lead counsel.

Stroud                I can't remember Tom.

Ragatz                Did you get involved in litigation of any nature? Perhaps some tax litigation,

Stroud                Yes, I did a few and remember I was with Schay & Hoyt when I was in Milwaukee and they sent some things out that I did for them. I think Ralph died first and then Ed Schay died a little later.

Ragatz                One thing I. remember about Hoyt is that he had represented some title insurance company where he claimed of never having lost a case.

Stroud                Could be, well he was good.

Ragatz                Your father continued to practice into his 90s, didn't he? He was around when I first started in the 60s-

Stroud                Yes, he did.

Ragatz                Then Vern Howard joined you who was a contemporary of mine.

Stroud                Oh yes, Vern. I was practicing several years before Vern came.

Ragatz                He must have come about 1962 I think. Who else was in the firm in those days? You and your brother, your father, Vern, Stebbins, when did he die? Well, I don't want to jump around but it seems to me that in addition to the Reiser Stafford firm, there were some other lawyers that went out of there. Was there one named Thomas that went to Portage out of your firm?

Stroud               No.

Ragatz                Were there any lawyers that went to the Isakson firm? Were they involved.

Stroud                Yes. What was the name the son is now with one of the insurance companies. San Orr.

Ragatz                And San Orr is the one you're talking about.

Stroud                Yes, San Orr, they had a firm.

Ragatz                Off Isakson, Werner and Lathrop about the time I came along.  Now were those guys originally with your firm?

Stroud                San Orr was. What were the others?

Ragatz                Orr Isakson, Joe Wemer who was a patent lawyer. But your Olin, Butler and Stroud firm sort of sired several other firms. Can you think of anybody else.

Stroud                No.

Ragatz                Well let's talk about what the Dane County Bar was like when you started practice in 1950.

Stroud                I don't remember.

Ragatz                You were active, more/less in the Dane County Bar.

Stroud                Oh yes, we had regular stuff; nothing special.

Ragatz                Do you remember how many practicing lawyers there were in the 1950s in Madison, active ones?

Stroud                Benjamin Byert.

Ragatz                Bull, Byert, Purcell and Piper. Well the firm I started with which was Roberts, Boardman, Suhr and Curry.

Stroud                Roberts, I think he was the one I got along very well with. I liked him and we trusted each other completely, and that makes a hell of a lot of difference in anything you are doing.

Ragatz                But I think you had the same kind of relationship with Wade Boardman and Fred Suhr, didn't you?

Stroud                Wade Boardman, yes, mostly with Wade. Wade and I got along real well. And                           Suhr of course. Fred is out in California.

Ragatz                Yes, Fred is still alive, I heard from him at Christmas. And Wally Bjork just died within the last month.

Stroud                Yes, I saw that.

Ragatz                Who else do you remember as leading lawyers at the time? Aberg, Bell, Blake & Metzner.

Stroud                George I know, Blake. I played squash with him regularly at the YMCA. I don't think I knew the rest of them over there.

Ragatz                How about Spohn, Ross, Stevens, Lamb and Pick?

Stroud                Spohn I knew real well,

Ragatz                Jim or his father?

Stroud                Both, but mostly Bill, the father. I think he was kind of a jerk if you really wanted to know. Young Jim wanted me to join him and form a new firm at one point. We talked about it and I didn't do it.

Ragatz                He kind of had a checkered career.

Stroud                Is he alive still?

Ragatz                I don't think so, but I'm not sure.

Stroud                I think he lost some of his marbles.

Ragatz                Well, he had an alcohol problem back then and they sort of excused him from the firm, the younger guys.

Stroud                Were you in that firm?

Ragatz                No was first at Boardman Suhr, and then Foley.

Stroud                Wade Boardman, I liked him.

Ragatz                Yes, he was a wonderful guy.

Stroud                He sure was.

Ragatz                Great mentor for me.

Stroud                Yes, he was.

Ragatz                And so was Fred Suhr. I got very close to Wally Bjork and am still in touch with his widow. Your practice was primary business corporate tax practice. Do you think of any significant business or tax matters that you handled for the record here

Stroud                No.

Ragatz                Well there were two. I was even involved in some of them. You were very well known as a corporate tax lawyer and you would tell me every time you thought I was wrong.

Stroud                You probably were.

Ragatz                Could be. Tell me how you think the practice of law changed from the 50's and going on from there. Specialization certainly was one thing. Even when I started you could do whatever the clients wanted us to do, but that's certainly not true anymore.

Stroud                I guess not, but it was still, when I was practicing you could pretty much do what the client called upon you to do. I think one of the main changes was the fact that we went from a whole bunch of small firms to several big ones.

Ragatz                Don't you think that was spumed by specialization though, you need to have people if you're going to take care of a significant client, a business client, you needed to have people with various specialties because one guy just couldn't stay up with all those areas. Maybe you did, but most of the rest of us didn't.

Stroud                I think you had an attorney and he represents you across the board on whatever you are doing. Like Findorff for example, I always represented them with whatever they got into, I represented them. And I can't remember that we got over our head very many times.

Ragatz                But today you need somebody with expertise in labor law, securities, commercial transactions and somebody else in tax. That seems to be the direction things have gone.

Stroud                Yes, I think so.

Ragatz                Let's talk about the economics of the practice of law, how that changed too. Do you remember what they paid you when you first when to Schay and Hoyt?

Stroud                I got about $35-$40 an hour.

Ragatz                And when you came to Madison?

Stroud                I got a little more, I guess by that time I had been practicing for awhile and I got some of my own clients. Like, Harry Steenbock's work and there was quite a bit of it. They formed WARF. I had all the books from the proceedings from when they first started that.

Ragatz                Did you get the patents for them?

Stroud                No I didn't get his patents.

Ragatz                Do you remember who did patent work? Maybe Joe Werner?

Stroud                Yes, could have been.

Ragatz                There's other areas of specialization, and patents were one of the first areas of specialization.

Stroud                I never did any of that.

Ragatz                You needed to have an engineering background for that.

Stroud                Yes, I guess so. And I think Joe Werner did most of that.

Ragatz                Other than Steenbock, what other significant clients do you remember?

Stroud                There was Harry. What I did mostly for him was his estate planning. And he had a great many investments. He had made some damn good ones, in stocks. But then I represented his widow. He got married later in life than most of us do.

Ragatz                Other than WARF did he have a particular private firm of his own.

Stroud                No, he didn't.

Ragatz                Well we talked about Steenbock, we talked about Findorff, mentioned Edward Kramer and Sons, what other clients can you think of? Willard Warzyn was a client of yours for many years.

Stroud                Yes, Willard called me the other day.

Ragatz                He's still going strong, nice guy.

Stroud                Yes he is, I liked him a lot, I still do. Of course day to day there were so many of them, I don't remember most of them.

Ragatz                But you had a very busy practice in my observation. You and I would be on the opposite sides of matters every once in a while. I always thought you did a good job.

Stroud                Now who were you with before you joined Foley?

Ragatz                Boardman.

Stroud                Boardman, gee I think I ran into you quite a few times.

Ragatz                I was asking you about other clients, do you remember any memorable cases you were not really involved in litigation.

Stroud                Findorff of course. I was on that Board and did quite a bit of work with them. And John was President for a little while.

Ragatz                Gerd Zoller?

Stroud                No, somebody before that who took over.

Ragatz                Hastings?

Stroud                Yes, Harold Hastings.

Ragatz                He was President for quite a while.

Stroud                Yes, and he was good too. He was good. Harold and I got along very well and spent a lot of time together. He became President right after John went off, Harold took over. Yes, I liked him and we got along real well together. We had quite a few things to work on.

Ragatz                Do you remember any matters that went into litigation or that went on appeal, any significant cases in your firm while you were there?

Ragatz                We've talked about a number of lawyers in Madison.

Stroud                Ben Bull, Myron Stevens.

Ragatz                Bull, Byert, Purcell. Myron Stevens, sure. That's what became Ross & Stevens. Were these some of the best lawyers in town at that point?

Stroud                Yes, now remember there weren't as many and there were a few that were well known and did most of the work.

Ragatz                How about Ed Pick?

Stroud                Ed Pick, now he was smart, he was a good lawyer. We didn't get along always. What happened, did he die?

Ragatz                Yes, he did. How about Frank Ross, Sr.?

Stroud                Yes, I of course knew him and had a few things with him, but not many. The two Spohns, the father was a jerk, but then I didn't get along very well with him.

Ragatz                I think there were others that didn't get along with him.

Stroud                Yes, I think that's so.

Ragatz                Well thinking about other lawyers, we talked about Reiser, Stafford, Rosenbaum. Joe Melli?

Stroud                Yes, I liked him, still do. He's a real nice guy.

Ragatz                He concentrated on labor law from the management side.

Stroud                Yes I brought him in a few times to help me.

Ragatz                Then there were Lawton and Cates.

Stroud                Yes and you know Dick Cates was with us for a while. I talk to him every once in a while and the last time, you know they have a cottage near us up at Three Lakes.

Ragatz                Bill Aberg, did you ever have any contact with him?

Stroud                Yes, I think so.

Ragatz                And Glenn Bell?

Stroud                I think so, but no litigation.

Ragatz                Go back to the economics of the practice, what's your impression of the levels of income of lawyers back in the 1950s versus the latter part of the century.

Stroud                It really has changed, you multiply by maybe 3.

Ragatz                Economics improved.

Stroud                Yes, it sure did. And of course now it is unbelievable what they get, some of them.

Ragatz                What you have to pay young lawyers now to hire them.

Stroud                Yes, I wonder what it is now when they start?

Ragatz                Well over $100,000, at least in the bigger firms.

Stroud                Really?

Ragatz                Yes. You and I probably practiced a long time before we ever got near that.

Stroud                Oh boy, we sure did. I noticed they had hired a couple of the top students from law school and I haven't even run into them.

Ragatz                Do you remember what you had to pay more recently?

Stroud                No.

Ragatz                To wind this up, let's reflect and see what historical insights or reflections you might have on your career and the practice of law that would add to our little historical sketch here. You feel satisfied with the career you chose?

Stroud                Oh yes, I shouldn't quit when I did.

Ragatz                When did you quit? When you were about 90?

Stroud                Oh did I? I don't know. But I'm glad I did.

Ragatz                But you had a very successful and enjoyable career, I think.

Stroud                Yes, I got what I wanted. Took care of my clients and my clients took care of me.

Ragatz                That's probably the definition of a successful career.

Stroud                You're very kind.

Ragatz                I think Dick I've enjoyed our relationship over the years and our discussion this morning.

Stroud                Oh yes.

Seward's Clients (after he gave it some thought)

Anchor Bank

Octopus Car Wash

Demco

Ahrens Cadillac

Hallman Paints

Hallmark Insurance

Renk Seeds

Wisconsin Cheeseman (Sun Prairie)

Riverview Boat Line (Dells)

Appleton Mills (Appleton)

HighSmith Co. (Ft. Atkinson) Berntsen Foundry Rupert Cornelius Co.

Warzyn Engineering

Wicke Building Leer Manufacturing

Goodman brothers

Harry and Evelyn Steenbock

Findorff

Kraemer